Diskusjon Triggere Porteføljer Aksjonærlister

Russland/Ukraina debatt 2 1

Annet
#4169

For det første, jeg leste faktisk gjennom artikkelen du viste til. Den henviser til dette intervjuet med Gorbachev. Det blir helt feil å bruke dette intervjuet for å slå fast at Russland ikke fikk løfte mot NATO-ekspandering østover.

I sitat fra intervjuet står det til og med følgende:

The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990.

Les ordet: Statements.

For det andre: Hva med å lese arkivene fra amerikanske myndigheter som jeg lenket til? Der er det dessuten ikke snakk om lovnader til Gorbachov - men til Yeltsin.

Her hopper du over to sentrale elementer som veier tyngre enn de du nevnte; nemlig
et ulovlig kupp og folkerettens prinsipp om retten til selvbestemmelse.

Ok, du trenger flere eksempler altså. Må tydeligvis inn med teskje dette her :grinning:

Orker ikke å oversette alt. Kan anbefale deg å lese gjennom denne: How and why the U.S. Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine - Modern Diplomacy

Nuland er for øvrig svært innflytelsesrik i utformingen av USAs utenrikspolitikk, og er nå den fjerde øverste i USAs UD.

3 Likes
#4171

It is striking that, almost eight years after one of the best-documented cases of mass murder in history, nobody is convicted or under arrest for the Maidan massacre.

#4172

“Although the full extent of U.S. involvement has not yet come to light, it is clear that
Washington backed the coup. Nuland and Republican Senator John McCain participated
in antigovernment demonstrations, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine,
proclaimed after Yanukovych’s toppling that it was “a day for the history books.” As a
leaked telephone recording revealed, Nuland had advocated regime change and wanted
the Ukrainian politician Arseniy Yatsenyuk to become prime minister in the new
government, which he did. No wonder Russians of all persuasions think the West played
a role in Yanukovych’s ouster.”

Helt tydelig og klart at USA var involvert i dette.

Dette er løgn fra din side.

Ukraine’s parliament has voted to abandon the country’s neutral “non-bloc” status and set a course for NATO membership, a move immediately denounced by Russia as “unfriendly.”

Dette skjedde en måned før Russland tok over Krim.

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#4173
#4174

:nerd_face:

Ukraine’s parliament has voted to abandon the country’s neutral “non-bloc” status and set a course for NATO membership, a move immediately denounced by Russia as “unfriendly.”
The legislative amendment submitted by President Petro Poroshenko last week was approved with 303 “yes” votes in the 450-seat Verkhovna Rada on December 23 … 2014.

:woman_facepalming:

from Imgflip Meme Generator

#4175

Uansett hva vi er vitne til i Ukraina nå er det skittent politisk spill, et spill som går utover millioner av uskyldige mennesker.

Blusser dette opp til faktisk krig blir det ingen vinnere.

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#4176

Joda, våpenlobbyen og de rike oligarkene.

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#4177

Våpenlobbyen og visse en del bakmenn helt sikkert men ser ikke hva oligarkene tjener på det…? De mister vel gassinntekter på dette

1 Like
#4178

Det er kanskje sant på bakkenivå, men så snakker Putin veldig mye om at Ukrainske landområder egentlig tilhører Russland. Om han så trykker på avtrekkeren og tar dem, kan en vel ikke si annet enn at han har vunnet.

#4179

Dette er bare i din fantasi.

Ellers bra artikkel her:

Russian troops near the border of Ukraine are not going to move into the country. It is simply senseless. Grabbing land devastated by its anti-national and corrupt ruling strata is one of the worst scenarios. Troops are there to prevent another assault on Donbass republics. If that happens, Kyiv’s army will be destroyed and what is left of the already failed state will probably collapse. These troops and other military–technical means, as Russia generals nicely put it, are there to increase pressure on puppeteers rather than on puppets.

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#4180

Snakker ikke nødvendigvis om de russiske oligarkene, men de amerikanske.

5 Likes
#4181

Dette er bare i din fantasi.
-Prto

“(The end of USSR) was a disintegration of historical Russia under the name of the Soviet Union.
We turned into a completely different country. And what had been built up over 1,000 years was largely lost”
-Vladimir Putin

«I believe that Russians and Ukrainians are one people … one nation, in fact,”
-Vladimir Putin

«Ukraine is entirely the product of the Soviet era. We know and remember well that it was shaped – for a significant part – on the lands of historical Russia. We can disagree about minor details, background and logics behind certain decisions. One fact is crystal clear: Russia was robbed, indeed»

«You want to establish a state of your own: you are welcome! But what are the terms? The republics that were founders of the Union, having denounced the 1922 Union Treaty, must return to the boundaries they had had before joining the Soviet Union.
-Vladimir Putin (2021)

“I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”
-Vladimir Putin

“You have to understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a country. Part of its territory is in Eastern Europe and the greater part was given to us”
-Vladimir Putin

1 Like
#4183

Altså dette er jo bare en faktaopplysning som en hvilken som helst historiker kunne sagt.

Dagens Russland og Ukraina har tilhørt samme myndigheter i hundrevis av år - og for det meste har innbyggerne i de to områdene levd fredelig side om side. Så dette er heller ikke særlig oppsiktsvekkende. Interessant også bemerke seg disse 3 prikkene - hva står i mellom?

Her er hele sitatet:
Therefore, modern Ukraine is entirely the product of the Soviet era. We know and remember well that it was shaped – for a significant part – on the lands of historical Russia. To make sure of that, it is enough to look at the boundaries of the lands reunited with the Russian state in the 17th century and the territory of the Ukrainian SSR when it left the Soviet Union.

The Bolsheviks treated the Russian people as inexhaustible material for their social experiments. They dreamt of a world revolution that would wipe out national states. That is why they were so generous in drawing borders and bestowing territorial gifts. It is no longer important what exactly the idea of the Bolshevik leaders who were chopping the country into pieces was. We can disagree about minor details, background and logics behind certain decisions. One fact is crystal clear: Russia was robbed, indeed.

Ser du alt som står i uthevet der, @Moto? Ganske mye. Og det gjør ditt redigerte sitat ganske meningsløst.

Dette er jo også helt innlysende logikk - samarbeidet mellom Ukraina og Russland går jo svært dypt, både historisk, økonomisk, familiært og kulturelt.

Dette er basert på en anonym kilde og er derfor ikke til å stole på.

–

Så hva er det i disse sitatene som tilsier at Putin mener landområdene i Ukraina “egentlig tilhører” Russland, og som du derfor mener betyr at Putin vil “ta” mer av ukrainske landområder?

3 Likes
#4184
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#4185

Apropos den lange diskusjonen vi har hatt her på tråden, her er en overraskende bra artikkel - og kanskje den første i sitt slag på NRK. En fin oppsummering.

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#4186

Ikke rart når de for en gangs skyld snakker med en akademiker med integritet og ansett som en av de mest fremragende på området.

2 Likes
#4187

Fantastisk, ja.

Artikkelen er basert på et innlegg han holdt for atlanterhavskomiteen.

Se gjerne fra rundt 38:00 her

Professorene sier egentlig bare akkurat det samme jeg har prøvd å banke inn i hodene på enkelte her, særlig @tusekakk og @Moto, så kanskje dette kan hjelpe dem videre på veien😅

3 Likes
#4188

«Sweden is really a part of Norway»
-Vladimir Putin

2 Likes
#4189

Blir spenndende å se hvordan appen kommer til å klare seg

#4190

Fra dagens møte mellom Lavrov og Truss:

Lavror is said to have turned to Truss (UK foreign secretary) and asked whether London recognizes Moscow’s sovereignty over the regions of Rostov and Voronezh, where large troop movements are said to have taken place in recent days, close to the Ukrainian border.

After a moment’s contemplation, the British diplomat reportedly replied that the UK “will never recognize Russia’s sovereignty over these regions.” The interaction is said to have spurred Deborah Bronnert, the UK’s ambassador to Moscow, to swoop in and quietly remind her colleague that the two are actually considered Russian territory even by her own government.

Dette er altså den britiske utenrikspolitiske talspersonen :rofl:

4 Likes